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This week, an unusual disagreement broke out between the president of the United States and Pope Leo XIV.

The New York Times Rome bureau chief, Motoko Rich, explains why President Trump cares so much about what the pope thinks, and why it matters that they are so deeply at odds.

Guest: Motoko Rich, the Rome bureau chief leading coverage of Italy, the Vatican and Greece for The New York Times.

Background reading:

President Trump lashed out on Sunday night at Pope Leo XIV, who responded hours later by saying he would continue to oppose war.
The Times’s Rome bureau chief is still getting a feel for a pontiff who is willing to challenge President Trump and use his sense of humor.

Photo: Alberto Pizzoli, Anna Rose Layden for The New York Times

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